Episode Script
(Note: the final episode will not follow the script verbatim, but it will be pretty close. )
Welcome to the Thinkering & Tinkering Podcast. I’m Fickle Father.
Oh Say, What is Truth?
When I was on my mission, our mission song was Hymn #272 “Oh say what is truth.”
This song talks about how finding truth is of more value than the riches of the world, that monarchs will find that their wealth means nothing in comparison to having truth, and that truth is an eternal and unchanging constant.
When I was a young man, I agreed with that song.
I was so happy knowing that I, at just 19 years old – and maybe even earlier, had done what these great monarchs only strived for… I had found the truth.
…or so I thought.
In today’s episode of the Thinkering & Tinkering Podcast, I’m going to be talking about my adventures with the truth.
You’re listening to the Thinkering & Tinkering podcast. I’m Fickle Father. Don’t you go dying on me…!
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Finding a Testimony in the Bearing of It
This is the Thinkering & Tinkering podcast. I’m Fickle Father.
I remember the first time I ever bore my testimony at least voluntarily. I was probably 13 or 14 at the time. I was in young men’s and my young men’s leader issued a challenge based on counsel from Boyd K Packer:
It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”
Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.
[music: In Vain (instrumental version)]
I was probably 13 or 14 at the time.
And where I was at with church at the time was – I don’t think I got it. I understood that we taught that Jesus died for us and gave us the gift of the atonement. But I didn’t really grasp what that really meant.
I do recall one time in Sunday school I asked my teacher, “What is this atonement thing – I keep hearing that word!?”
(And my mom would probably be like “What!? We’ve talked about that like a million times”)
The teacher said something like “Oh, the Atonement means the at-one-ment. It’s how we become at one with God.”
I was like, “Oh, okay, got it.” But I was really thinking, “Oh sure… like it really means ‘at-one-ment’ – there’s no way you can just break up the words like that and that’s what it means. That’s like someone saying, “what does ‘season’ mean and the answer is ‘oh, that’s sea son – the male child of a large body of water.”
So I thought “Atonement means at-one-ment just like Bible means Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.”
I later realized my teacher was right, but my point is, when my young men’s advisor issued this challenge, I was not really sure if I had a testimony mostly because I probably really didn’t even know what was going on.
Well, the challenge was issued and Fast Sunday was coming up. Since anyone can go up and bear testimony on Fast Sunday, I figured I would do it.
I got up there and I tried not to sound too cliche. I said something like this:
[music stops]
… For those of you who don’t know me, my name is Fickle – well, at the time I was not a father so – Fickle not-father. I believe in the church. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the book of mormon is true. Yadyayda.
When I sat down, I felt good. I felt like God was happy with me, my young men’s leader was happy with me, my mom was happy with me, people around me were happy with me. I was like, “Hey! This is great!”
[continue: In Vain]
After the meeting, people came up to me and said how amazing my testimony was. I felt pretty good about it. I guess Boyd K Packer was right! I did find my testimony!
Then a lady from the ward came up to me. I was ready for some more praise.
But she didn’t give it to me…at least not really.
She said, “That was brave you bore your testimony, but can I give you one suggestion?”
I said, “uhh, sure.”
She goes, “You used the word ‘believe.’ You should use the word ‘know’–I ‘know’ the church is true. I ‘know’ Joseph Smith was a prophet. That would make your testimony even more powerful.”
“Oh…okay.”
And I did that.
The next few times I would bear my testimony I would replace “believe” with “know.” And I cringe at this now, but I would cry too. I felt sincere at the time, it was all good.
At one point, a guy came up to me and said, “Brother fickle, you are such a spiritual giant! You’ll be a great missionary!”
So yeah, I took Boyd K Packer’s challenge and I felt good and saw some good results.
And since I felt good–that must be the holy ghost–and I saw good results–that must be the good fruit. Therefore, it must needs be that I do in fact have a testimony!
Yay! I have a testimony!
I know it all. I know the church is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know Gordon B. Hinckley (at the time) is the prophet for the whole world. I love my mom and dad!
I knew all these things. I knew it all.
[music stop]
When Good Feelings Lead to Bad Facts
[Music: Evening Stroll]
That’s why it hurt me so much when I realized that my testimony that Joseph Smith did not use a rock in a hat – which was confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost – was not all that true —
That my good feelings could result in knowing bad facts.
I wondered, “How far does that go? What other facts are there that I’m saying I know that aren’t actually true?”
I knew that Joseph Smith and Emma were a true American love story…Well, it turns out that is more complicated. I didn’t even know Joseph Smith was a polygamist…
But I knew Joseph Smith was otherwise a good man – I really admired him–I even wore the same ring he wore… Then I did a project for the Joseph Smith papers while I was in law school. My job was to research the laws relevant to Joseph Smith’s orders to destroy the Nauvoo Expositor – the newspaper that was going to expose his “sordid affairs”. My task was to write a scholarly paper as if I were representing Joseph – to explain why the Nauvoo city charter gave Joseph Smith the rightful, legal authority to destroy the press as a public nuisance. I did the job, but my overall impression was, “…I can’t believe Joseph Smith was the bad guy here!”
I knew that I was a noble and great one because Joseph Smith translated that Pearl of Great Price verse that said so and that verse as on ancient papryi written by the hand of Abraham himself… Well, it turns out those facts are, well, perhaps a little overly optimistic.
I knew that the Native Americans were actually jews who migrated to the American continent…but then the DNA analysis didn’t show that like I would have expected.
At the very least, I knew that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus in the first vision…well, depending on which version you accept of course.
The more I learned, the more I was like, “Man, I’ll tell you what…either my feelings are not good at listening to what the holy ghost is telling me, or I’m getting bad information from somewhere.”
And when Church leaders responded to this type of pushback by saying “We’re as transparent as we know how to be” and “not all information is useful”, I just thought, “Gosh Dang it, they’re lying to me.”
And I’m going to explain why I think that is in a later episode.
Eventually I did reach a point where you just have to question, “How much of what I learned is actually true — and without the need for caveats or context?”
And then … is any of this stuff true?
And ultimately, I asked, “how do I know if anything is true?”
That’s the question I’ll examine, when we come back.
This is the Thinkering & Tinkering podcast. Stay with me.
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Classical Cognitive Theory (A.K.A. Epistemology)
This is the Thinkering & Tinkering Podcast. I’m Fickle Father.
One day I was talking to my brother about the brain and how it works – or probably more likely how it doesn’t. How does a reasonable person, for example, end up believing in some weird cult? And how do you know that’s not you? Like, seriously, how does the brain do that? I want to know.
And he was like, “Oh, are you talking about epistemology?”
And I’m like, “gasundheit?”
My brother has a way of knowing lots of things. He has a lot of epistemals I think would be the word.
But he says, “Epistemology is the theory of knowledge and knowing. You should read up on it.”
So I researched more about epistemology.
And I’m sorry to say this to all the epistemology fans out there, but it’s a philosophical theory that’s pretty hard to follow. It reads something like this:
Epistemology refers to propositional knowledge using the schema ‘S knows that p’, where ‘S’ stands for the subject who has knowledge and ‘p’ for the proposition that is known; where ‘p’ is justified under Deontological and Non-Deontological considerations while accounting for Gettier’s dilemma.
So yeah… Someone needs to go in and make it more accessible.
“Why don’t you do it?”
“Ah! Who are you?”
“Why, I’m your imagination!”
“Oh, okay!”
“And you could explain it to people!”
“I guess I could give it a try!”
“Yay! We believe in you! Yeah Charlie!” [fades]
Let’s see how this goes…
[Breakdown music]
First of all, let’s replace the word Epistemology. As a word, it kind of stinks. It just sounds complicated. We need something with more zing. We need something like “Ancient Alien theory.”
So I will call people who think about how we know things–epistemologists– “Classical Cognitive Theorists.”
Now things are getting exciting…
Classical Cognitive Theorists on Propositional vs. Relational Knowledge
[Epic music: Question Mark]
In a world that thirsts for knowledge, what if we were to find the key to our cognition? That’s the theory that Classical Cognitive Theorists explore.
Classical Cognitive Theorists believe that the human brain has many ways of knowing the world around it.
According to Classical Cognitive Theorists, two key methods of knowledge are relevant to religion.
The first is propositional knowledge…
George McCloud, University of the college of Pacific Northwest, East Campus:
“Propositional Knowledge,” or “Factual Knowledge” is knowledge of facts or data, where the goal is accuracy. It’s binary; it is either True or False. It requires some form of verification. For example, I can know that “water boils at 100°C” as I can test that.
Similarly, I can know that Jon doesn’t like mayonnaise because I can observe his sandwich eating habits or I can just ask him.
These are propositions, or facts, that I can confirm with data.
The second is relational knowledge…
Patrick O’hennesy, Albertsons College of Idaho
Relational Knowledge is knowledge of your relationship to a person or an organization, where the goal is connection, trust, or intimacy. Unlike propositional knowledge, it isn’t binary (True/False); it is dynamic—it grows deeper or shallower over time. It requires vulnerability, shared experience, and time.
Relational knowledge is verified by living with and feeling; not by measuring.
For example, I can know that “Jon is a good friend to me” but I cannot test this in a lab, and a single piece of data doesn’t prove it. I know it because of the history of our interactions.
[Music: Dream Cave]
According to Classical Cognitive Theorists, the human brain may malfunction when relational knowledge is confused as Propositional or Factual Knowledge. When this occurs, Classical Cognitive Theorists believe that the brain can be sucked into a knowledge blackhole – where it is unable to decipher between factual and relational realities.
Simply put, it constitutes what we would call a category error. When we take a Relational Experience (a feeling of peace, love, or connection) and force it to validate a Propositional Claim (a historical date, a scientific fact, or an absolute truth). It can create what we call in the field: cognitive dissonance.
[End epic music]
The Category Error
And this is what occurred with me.
I had many relational experiences with the church as a young man. I sincerely participated. I felt the goodness of the community. I felt the approval of my leaders, my parents, and probably even God as I participated. I experienced what I genuinely saw as good things.
But I had a category error. I assumed that because I had a good relationship with the church, it meant that every detail in the church was factually correct.
The flip side can also be true. Just because I thought something was factually correct and found I was wrong, it does not necessarily follow that it means my relationship is also wrong. And I say this because it is very possible to have a great relationship with a flawed person or organization.
It has to be because that is every person and every organization. If that weren’t the case, we could not have relationships with anyone.
In the Book of Mormon, Alma points out that we test the seed of faith to see if it is good. Once we see it’s good, he asks: is your knowledge perfect? He says, “no…for you have only tested to see if the seed is good.”
I’m not going to beat that analogy to death – at least not at the moment – but I think it shows that we can have a good relationship with the gospel even without having a perfect knowledge of the truth – and technically, that ‘s the definition of faith.
So here’s my advice to my younger self and my kids: It’s okay not to have propositional, factual knowledge of any of this stuff. In fact, I’m not convinced you can because, as these Classical Cognitive Theorist may say, it is not a proposition you can justify by verifiable data.
Moreover, gaining factual knowledge is really, in my view, not the point and, technically, it’s not what is being asked of you. You’re asked to be a person of faith.
And I think the reality of the situation is that having faith in someone is, by definition, relational knowledge. It requires building a relationship.
Unfortunately, that’s not particularly easy either.
Conclusion: The Truth That Really Matters
Now, to bring this episode full circle: I began by sharing how as a young man, I thought the truth was the most noble prize of greater value than any other riches of the world’s monarchs. At that time, I believed this meant factual, propositional truth. And I thought I had it.
But now that I’m older and closer to the age of what I envisioned these monarchs might be, it’s now my opinion that the truth that really matters—the truth we’re all searching for in life— is not factual truth; it’s relational. We want connection—real connection, with god, with ourselves, with each other.
That’s the truth that gems, riches, or wealth cannot buy. And that’s the type of truth worth sharing.
This is the Thinkering & Tinkering podcast. I’m Fickle Father.
Thank you for sticking with me in today’s episode.
Outro & Credits
If you want to reach out, my email is hi@ficklefather.com. I’m not on social media. I’d be curious to know what you think I got right and what you think I got wrong. Part of me would love to share listener feedback in side episodes.
If you’d like to be on my email list, you can get on the list by visiting ficklefather.com. You may get email updates from me and you may not. Let yourself be surprised.
All music and sound effects are made possible by EpidemicSound.com (This is a referral link — I may get a discount on my subscription).
Boyd K Packer’s voice was generated by AI, but the words were his talk entitled “The Candle of the Lord” which was published in the January 1983 edition of the Ensign magazine.
The epistemology discussion was based on my best understanding and I hope you could tell the characters were voiced and made up by me.
I’d also like to give a shout-out to my mom. I’m afraid she’ll listen to this and think she didn’t do a good enough job explaining the atonement. But she’s always been a very good mom to me and I always felt like she thought I was cool and funny even if I sometimes wondered if anyone else did. That’s what I needed the most and she gave that to me.
Alright, the next episode is entitled That Time I Took a Giant Leap of Faith.
This has been the Thinkering & Tinkering podcast. I’m Fickle Father.
Bye.
Epistemology Sources
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2018/entries/epistemology/